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	<title>Comments on: NYT: wine consumers &#8220;brainwashed&#8221; into thinking they need education</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/</link>
	<description>wine talk that goes down easy</description>
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		<title>By: Google Places wine in San Francisco &#124; Enotourist</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-403148</link>
		<dc:creator>Google Places wine in San Francisco &#124; Enotourist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-403148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (and intentionally created to boost prices) with drinking wine. Because, as Dr. Vino mentioned in a recent article, why is that beer drinkers drink with ease while wine drinkers are generally a terrified lot, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (and intentionally created to boost prices) with drinking wine. Because, as Dr. Vino mentioned in a recent article, why is that beer drinkers drink with ease while wine drinkers are generally a terrified lot, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Beer drinkers vs. wine drinkers perspective&#8230;part two. &#171; On The Lees</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-376007</link>
		<dc:creator>Beer drinkers vs. wine drinkers perspective&#8230;part two. &#171; On The Lees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-376007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Dr. Vino blog post caught my attention recently,  as I came across it right on the tails of my earlier post about [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dr. Vino blog post caught my attention recently,  as I came across it right on the tails of my earlier post about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-354005</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-354005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t want to make a pest of myself, but I found another quote from Gopnik that makes the point directly:

...[I]t is not wine that makes us happy for no reason; it is alcohol that makes us happy for no reason. Wine is what gives us a reason to let alcohol make us happy without one. Without wine lore, and wine tasting, and wine talk, and wine labels, and, yes, wine writing and rating--the whole elaborate idea of wine--we would still get drunk, but we would be merely drunk. The language of wine appreciation is there not because wine is such a special subtle challenge to our discernment but because without the elaborate language--without the idea of wine, held up and regularly polished--it would all be about the same, or taste that way. Wine talk and wine ceremony are not simply snobbish distractions that lead us away from the real experience; they are part of what lets the experience happen. To turn wine away from happiness is the drinker&#039;s sin. A good fruity bottle of a Santa Barbara Pinot Noir, with a pretty label and a decent story, makes us happy, and happier than that we don&#039;t really deserve to be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t want to make a pest of myself, but I found another quote from Gopnik that makes the point directly:</p>
<p>&#8230;[I]t is not wine that makes us happy for no reason; it is alcohol that makes us happy for no reason. Wine is what gives us a reason to let alcohol make us happy without one. Without wine lore, and wine tasting, and wine talk, and wine labels, and, yes, wine writing and rating&#8211;the whole elaborate idea of wine&#8211;we would still get drunk, but we would be merely drunk. The language of wine appreciation is there not because wine is such a special subtle challenge to our discernment but because without the elaborate language&#8211;without the idea of wine, held up and regularly polished&#8211;it would all be about the same, or taste that way. Wine talk and wine ceremony are not simply snobbish distractions that lead us away from the real experience; they are part of what lets the experience happen. To turn wine away from happiness is the drinker&#8217;s sin. A good fruity bottle of a Santa Barbara Pinot Noir, with a pretty label and a decent story, makes us happy, and happier than that we don&#8217;t really deserve to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-354003</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-354003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reading Mr. Goldberg&#039;s comments reminded me of a piece written back in 2004 for the New Yorker by Adam Gopnik, called &quot;What We Talk About When We Talk About Wine.&quot; I think it might be relevant to the discussion:

Being an expert on wine and writing about it is what the English call &quot;naff,&quot; embarrassing and uncool, while being a non-expert on wine and writing about it anyway sounds merely boozy. No subject produces a literature so anxious, expressed not so much in its grandiosity as in its defensive jokiness and regular-guydom.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading Mr. Goldberg&#8217;s comments reminded me of a piece written back in 2004 for the New Yorker by Adam Gopnik, called &#8220;What We Talk About When We Talk About Wine.&#8221; I think it might be relevant to the discussion:</p>
<p>Being an expert on wine and writing about it is what the English call &#8220;naff,&#8221; embarrassing and uncool, while being a non-expert on wine and writing about it anyway sounds merely boozy. No subject produces a literature so anxious, expressed not so much in its grandiosity as in its defensive jokiness and regular-guydom.</p>
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		<title>By: Yeoman wine, harvest festival, more brainwashing, advice &#8212; sipped &#38; spit &#124; Dr Vino&#039;s wine blog</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-353811</link>
		<dc:creator>Yeoman wine, harvest festival, more brainwashing, advice &#8212; sipped &#38; spit &#124; Dr Vino&#039;s wine blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 15:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-353811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] brainwashing As we did here recently, Matt Kramer also expresses distaste with the idea of &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; among wine [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] brainwashing As we did here recently, Matt Kramer also expresses distaste with the idea of &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; among wine [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Vino</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-353765</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Vino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 01:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-353765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Howard, 

Thank you for stopping by again to share your thoughts. 

(For those who didn&#039;t see Matt Kramer&#039;s article from this week, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/45750&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here is the link.&lt;/a&gt;)

While I appreciate your comments and understand where you&#039;re coming from, I think that the paragraph at the end of the story didn&#039;t really fit. I also think that using the term &quot;brainwashing&quot; was regrettable. But I do think the topics are very much worthy of exploration; it would be great if Asimov will take them up again in a blog post or future column so that he could elaborate on something that appears to be on his mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Howard, </p>
<p>Thank you for stopping by again to share your thoughts. </p>
<p>(For those who didn&#8217;t see Matt Kramer&#8217;s article from this week, <a href="http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/45750" rel="nofollow" class="liexternal">here is the link.</a>)</p>
<p>While I appreciate your comments and understand where you&#8217;re coming from, I think that the paragraph at the end of the story didn&#8217;t really fit. I also think that using the term &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; was regrettable. But I do think the topics are very much worthy of exploration; it would be great if Asimov will take them up again in a blog post or future column so that he could elaborate on something that appears to be on his mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard G. Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-353663</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard G. Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-353663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt Kramer seems to have grabbed what he thinks is the ball, and to have run with it -- in the wrong direction.

That is, I think he has misread and over-extrapolated a simple, fundamental point that Eric made. 

I don’t take Eric Asimov&#039;s  remark that  “beer consumers . . . have  “had a solid grounding in their subject” to mean anything more than they are comfortable with beer, because in American life it has been around forever.  Americans are to beer as Italians are to wine.  

In Italy, and among Italian emigrants to the United States, grapes, wine -- homemade or bought -- has been on the table daily, often in tumblers, and is as natural as breathing out and breathing in. Not only is it routinely in their homes,  it is in their Roman Catholic Church, in the liturgy, hence in their souls. By contrast, it is not even in Americans’  bones. 

I believe that when Eric writes about Americans being “brainwashed,” the word is a shorthand allusion to our society’s historic uneasiness with wine. In America the word wine, the very idea of wine,  is fraught, loaded, encumbered -- indeed, virtually crippled by associations, most of them negative, few of them related to pleasure.  In this way, it has “brainwashed” us.  

To counter that societal situation, American wine educators and their wine-writing cohorts have been -- it’s their word --  “demystifying” wine.  That is, have been striving to normalize it. To transform it from being a Big Deal to no deal whatsoever. 

So, yes, we have been brainwashed, by our inheritance at birth, which not so long ago, during Prohibition, depicted wine, like booze, as the work of Satan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt Kramer seems to have grabbed what he thinks is the ball, and to have run with it &#8212; in the wrong direction.</p>
<p>That is, I think he has misread and over-extrapolated a simple, fundamental point that Eric made. </p>
<p>I don’t take Eric Asimov&#8217;s  remark that  “beer consumers . . . have  “had a solid grounding in their subject” to mean anything more than they are comfortable with beer, because in American life it has been around forever.  Americans are to beer as Italians are to wine.  </p>
<p>In Italy, and among Italian emigrants to the United States, grapes, wine &#8212; homemade or bought &#8212; has been on the table daily, often in tumblers, and is as natural as breathing out and breathing in. Not only is it routinely in their homes,  it is in their Roman Catholic Church, in the liturgy, hence in their souls. By contrast, it is not even in Americans’  bones. </p>
<p>I believe that when Eric writes about Americans being “brainwashed,” the word is a shorthand allusion to our society’s historic uneasiness with wine. In America the word wine, the very idea of wine,  is fraught, loaded, encumbered &#8212; indeed, virtually crippled by associations, most of them negative, few of them related to pleasure.  In this way, it has “brainwashed” us.  </p>
<p>To counter that societal situation, American wine educators and their wine-writing cohorts have been &#8212; it’s their word &#8212;  “demystifying” wine.  That is, have been striving to normalize it. To transform it from being a Big Deal to no deal whatsoever. </p>
<p>So, yes, we have been brainwashed, by our inheritance at birth, which not so long ago, during Prohibition, depicted wine, like booze, as the work of Satan.</p>
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		<title>By: Vinologue &#187; Google Places wine in San Francisco</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-353192</link>
		<dc:creator>Vinologue &#187; Google Places wine in San Francisco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-353192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] (and intentionally created to boost prices) with drinking wine. Because, as Dr. Vino mentioned in a recent article, why is that beer drinkers drink with ease while wine drinkers are generally a terrified lot, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (and intentionally created to boost prices) with drinking wine. Because, as Dr. Vino mentioned in a recent article, why is that beer drinkers drink with ease while wine drinkers are generally a terrified lot, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-353046</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 20:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-353046</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would seem that the reaction to Asimov&#039;s generic &quot;beer consumers&quot; and &quot;wine consumers&quot; (obviously not your dedicated hop heads and wine geeks) is taken somewhat defensively by some that don&#039;t see any reason to apply goodwill and identify. From a retail perspective, the real people that put faces to such stereotypes certainly do exist –to such a degree that I don&#039;t have the slightest problem with Asimov&#039;s generalized contention. That there exists an industry of wine education that enjoys the fruits of &quot;wine inadequacy&quot; there isn&#039;t any reason to deny either. That&#039;s not to say there is a speculative wine education industry that is responsible for imprinting such brainwashing, and I really can&#039;t see that is Asimov&#039;s meaning. To contrive this interpretation is, to me, unreasonable. Not a broadside.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would seem that the reaction to Asimov&#8217;s generic &#8220;beer consumers&#8221; and &#8220;wine consumers&#8221; (obviously not your dedicated hop heads and wine geeks) is taken somewhat defensively by some that don&#8217;t see any reason to apply goodwill and identify. From a retail perspective, the real people that put faces to such stereotypes certainly do exist –to such a degree that I don&#8217;t have the slightest problem with Asimov&#8217;s generalized contention. That there exists an industry of wine education that enjoys the fruits of &#8220;wine inadequacy&#8221; there isn&#8217;t any reason to deny either. That&#8217;s not to say there is a speculative wine education industry that is responsible for imprinting such brainwashing, and I really can&#8217;t see that is Asimov&#8217;s meaning. To contrive this interpretation is, to me, unreasonable. Not a broadside.</p>
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		<title>By: bill st john</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352991</link>
		<dc:creator>bill st john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[beer people talk to each other about beer; wine people talk to each other about voodoo, status, possession, stars, glitz, velvet ropes and foods only wine people eat; wine education isn&#039;t for wine people; it&#039;s for beer people who want to drink wine the way they drank/drink beer]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>beer people talk to each other about beer; wine people talk to each other about voodoo, status, possession, stars, glitz, velvet ropes and foods only wine people eat; wine education isn&#8217;t for wine people; it&#8217;s for beer people who want to drink wine the way they drank/drink beer</p>
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		<title>By: Zack Seymour</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352960</link>
		<dc:creator>Zack Seymour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352960</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Everything is taught through some educational experience which is what allows us to know what an IPA or a stout or a merlot or pinot taste like. Wine enthusiasts feel a need to formalize their knowledge with classes. Simply there are many more wine appreciation courses than beer or liquor appreciation, but why? In America we grow up with a knowledge for beer. It&#039;s cheap. It&#039;s widely available.  Most of American&#039;s heritage come from beer drinking cultures (they were slow recovering from phylloxera like Germany or lost all their vines in the Ice Age like England). We grow up with beer, but we don&#039;t with wine. Grains can be grown anywhere, but vines are geo specific. And there is more to know about wine. Most American&#039;s don&#039;t what makes a Burgundy a Burgundy, but they know what a Bud tastes like and knowledge is confidence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything is taught through some educational experience which is what allows us to know what an IPA or a stout or a merlot or pinot taste like. Wine enthusiasts feel a need to formalize their knowledge with classes. Simply there are many more wine appreciation courses than beer or liquor appreciation, but why? In America we grow up with a knowledge for beer. It&#8217;s cheap. It&#8217;s widely available.  Most of American&#8217;s heritage come from beer drinking cultures (they were slow recovering from phylloxera like Germany or lost all their vines in the Ice Age like England). We grow up with beer, but we don&#8217;t with wine. Grains can be grown anywhere, but vines are geo specific. And there is more to know about wine. Most American&#8217;s don&#8217;t what makes a Burgundy a Burgundy, but they know what a Bud tastes like and knowledge is confidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Vino</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352878</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Vino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 00:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi all- 

Thanks for the comments. If anything, I think it shows that the topics here are rich and worthy of further exploration. 

Just to clear up any confusion, wine can definitely be intimidating--nobody is arguing otherwise. But Asimov delivered his broadside against wine education, which is something very different and something I find puzzling.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all- </p>
<p>Thanks for the comments. If anything, I think it shows that the topics here are rich and worthy of further exploration. </p>
<p>Just to clear up any confusion, wine can definitely be intimidating&#8211;nobody is arguing otherwise. But Asimov delivered his broadside against wine education, which is something very different and something I find puzzling.</p>
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		<title>By: RobLL</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352877</link>
		<dc:creator>RobLL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 00:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352877</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About 15 years ago I began being suspicious that for all except super tasters (of whom I have no reason or way to judge)that there is little real difference between better than good wine wine and very good wine. In numerical terms I think I can tell the difference between an 82 wine and an 89 wine. But once I get there further pts higher are not perceived. Then again I may be paying too much attention to the other person, the meal, or the book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About 15 years ago I began being suspicious that for all except super tasters (of whom I have no reason or way to judge)that there is little real difference between better than good wine wine and very good wine. In numerical terms I think I can tell the difference between an 82 wine and an 89 wine. But once I get there further pts higher are not perceived. Then again I may be paying too much attention to the other person, the meal, or the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Wine Cellar Roundup – Edition #53</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352876</link>
		<dc:creator>Wine Cellar Roundup – Edition #53</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the NYT, are wine consumers being brainwashed into needing wine education? Interesting thoughts laid out here by [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the NYT, are wine consumers being brainwashed into needing wine education? Interesting thoughts laid out here by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2011/09/22/nyt-wine-consumers-brainwashed-into-thinking-they-need-education/#comment-352852</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=9660#comment-352852</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It´s a major problem, in Argentina wine consuming has drecresed from the late 70s and beer has risen exponentialy. Winemakers are to blame, at least over here, for not making the product accesible to everyone. Trying to be elitists to difference from beer, it backfired on us. Plus a label that says &quot;you will find blackberries in your nose&quot; and &quot;drink with roasted deer&quot; don´t help either, consumers can´t find either of those and get frustated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It´s a major problem, in Argentina wine consuming has drecresed from the late 70s and beer has risen exponentialy. Winemakers are to blame, at least over here, for not making the product accesible to everyone. Trying to be elitists to difference from beer, it backfired on us. Plus a label that says &#8220;you will find blackberries in your nose&#8221; and &#8220;drink with roasted deer&#8221; don´t help either, consumers can´t find either of those and get frustated.</p>
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