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	<title>Comments on: Perceiving chaptalization in the glass: is it possible? [wonky]</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/</link>
	<description>wine talk that goes down easy</description>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-303417</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-303417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Easy enough to test.  Blind taste 6 wines that have been chaptalized and 6 that have not.  Personally I think it is BS but none of these opinions matter.  Rank speculation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Easy enough to test.  Blind taste 6 wines that have been chaptalized and 6 that have not.  Personally I think it is BS but none of these opinions matter.  Rank speculation.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Gillman</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302626</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Gillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 02:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anyone else impressed that I managed to mis-spell &quot;chaptalisation&quot; every single time in my previous comment?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone else impressed that I managed to mis-spell &#8220;chaptalisation&#8221; every single time in my previous comment?</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Gillman</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302623</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Gillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 02:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I pretty much agree with Nova C.&#039;s comments.  I would tend to believe that a wine has had a considerable amount of sugar added when the flavour profile doesn&#039;t match the ripeness level implied by the bottle&#039;s alcohol level (assuming you know this - in Australia and NZ wine generally comes with a standard drinks rating which can allow you to determine the exact alcohol level in spite of whichever fictitious &quot;% vol.&quot; number is also printed on the label).  Strangely, excessive chaptilisation seems to make the wine taste thinner and weedier, while at the same time heat from the alcohol becomes more apparent.

Moderate chaptelisation should be much less detectible.  I have never heard of particular aromas being caused by chaptilisation.  But I would not be surprised if tiny chemical signatures could be detected by some chemical or physical analysis.  As pointed out, most of the sugar is converted into CO2 and ethanol, but other trace chemicals and alcohols are produced and will probably vary depending on whether the yeasts are working on glucose, sucrose etc.  Also, even in the dryest of wines the conversion to alcohol is not 100% and residual sugars will remain.  But do you know anyone who could taste 0.1g of sucrose in a bottle of wine, and be sure it wasn&#039;t another tiny amount of left over fructose?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pretty much agree with Nova C.&#8217;s comments.  I would tend to believe that a wine has had a considerable amount of sugar added when the flavour profile doesn&#8217;t match the ripeness level implied by the bottle&#8217;s alcohol level (assuming you know this &#8211; in Australia and NZ wine generally comes with a standard drinks rating which can allow you to determine the exact alcohol level in spite of whichever fictitious &#8220;% vol.&#8221; number is also printed on the label).  Strangely, excessive chaptilisation seems to make the wine taste thinner and weedier, while at the same time heat from the alcohol becomes more apparent.</p>
<p>Moderate chaptelisation should be much less detectible.  I have never heard of particular aromas being caused by chaptilisation.  But I would not be surprised if tiny chemical signatures could be detected by some chemical or physical analysis.  As pointed out, most of the sugar is converted into CO2 and ethanol, but other trace chemicals and alcohols are produced and will probably vary depending on whether the yeasts are working on glucose, sucrose etc.  Also, even in the dryest of wines the conversion to alcohol is not 100% and residual sugars will remain.  But do you know anyone who could taste 0.1g of sucrose in a bottle of wine, and be sure it wasn&#8217;t another tiny amount of left over fructose?</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela @ Enobytes</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302620</link>
		<dc:creator>Pamela @ Enobytes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 01:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Huh? Um, no. Half the population can&#039;t even tell if a wine is corked!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh? Um, no. Half the population can&#8217;t even tell if a wine is corked!</p>
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		<title>By: Nova C.</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302598</link>
		<dc:creator>Nova C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, I love Mr. Nolan&#039;s comment.

Second, As a winemaker that has worked in cold, warm and hot growing climates and has used both chaptalization and acidification, it is my finding that detection all depends on the degree to which each is used. Chaptalization when used in small amounts (meaning raised 2-3 Brix) is virtually undetectable in moderately ripe grapes.  Same with acidification.  Moderation is key to balance in both instances.  Adding sugar to super unripe grapes are a completely different story.  Cabernet can be particularly difficult to hide sugar adds because the flavors in the grapes are not ripe, not because you can taste the sugar add.  The trick to discovering sugar/acid adjustments is to note the ripeness of flavors and decide if the acid/alcohol balance makes sense for the flavor profile.  

As Dan pointed out the sugar (if fermented dry) coverts to alcohol not flavor compounds.  These are made through related but different pathways during the fermentation process. 

Hope this helps!
Nova]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I love Mr. Nolan&#8217;s comment.</p>
<p>Second, As a winemaker that has worked in cold, warm and hot growing climates and has used both chaptalization and acidification, it is my finding that detection all depends on the degree to which each is used. Chaptalization when used in small amounts (meaning raised 2-3 Brix) is virtually undetectable in moderately ripe grapes.  Same with acidification.  Moderation is key to balance in both instances.  Adding sugar to super unripe grapes are a completely different story.  Cabernet can be particularly difficult to hide sugar adds because the flavors in the grapes are not ripe, not because you can taste the sugar add.  The trick to discovering sugar/acid adjustments is to note the ripeness of flavors and decide if the acid/alcohol balance makes sense for the flavor profile.  </p>
<p>As Dan pointed out the sugar (if fermented dry) coverts to alcohol not flavor compounds.  These are made through related but different pathways during the fermentation process. </p>
<p>Hope this helps!<br />
Nova</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302593</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s be naughty and also ask the question of whether in warmer climates you can tell whether there has been any acidification. In an ideal vineyard, in an ideal vintage, with the grapes picked at an ideal time, there shouldn&#039;t need to be any sort of adjustment. Such conditions hardly ever arise.

Which is where the art of the winemaker comes in. Just as a perfect human should need no enhancement, so a perfect wine should need no additions. But how often does such as wine occur? If grapegrowers and winemakers can provide the equivalent of a few hours in the beauty salon or gym, in order to approach perfection, then that sounds like no bad thing.

However the problem then arises of who is providing the definition of perfection. And with wine, as with humans, there is no universal answer.

And to get back to the subject, there are wines that have been acidified/chaptalized where you notice the adjustments, and there are others where you don&#039;t. Which I know is completely unhelpful for those looking for a concrete answer. But wine doesn&#039;t conform to scientific method.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s be naughty and also ask the question of whether in warmer climates you can tell whether there has been any acidification. In an ideal vineyard, in an ideal vintage, with the grapes picked at an ideal time, there shouldn&#8217;t need to be any sort of adjustment. Such conditions hardly ever arise.</p>
<p>Which is where the art of the winemaker comes in. Just as a perfect human should need no enhancement, so a perfect wine should need no additions. But how often does such as wine occur? If grapegrowers and winemakers can provide the equivalent of a few hours in the beauty salon or gym, in order to approach perfection, then that sounds like no bad thing.</p>
<p>However the problem then arises of who is providing the definition of perfection. And with wine, as with humans, there is no universal answer.</p>
<p>And to get back to the subject, there are wines that have been acidified/chaptalized where you notice the adjustments, and there are others where you don&#8217;t. Which I know is completely unhelpful for those looking for a concrete answer. But wine doesn&#8217;t conform to scientific method.</p>
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		<title>By: Viinipiru</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302591</link>
		<dc:creator>Viinipiru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are no vines growing in Northern Europe, take it from a Finn! But to answer u&#039;r question, I think not:)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no vines growing in Northern Europe, take it from a Finn! But to answer u&#8217;r question, I think not:)</p>
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		<title>By: 1WineDude</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302588</link>
		<dc:creator>1WineDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Nils!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Nils!!</p>
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		<title>By: nilstesduc</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302579</link>
		<dc:creator>nilstesduc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi, 
In Answer to 1WineDude and Nolan. 
I did an experiment two years ago in weak rosé (From Tannat) and chardonnay. I added 16 gr/l of sugar(1% of alcohol). Because of temperature issues, I add the sugar at different moment. In the end I had complete wine profiles... So just to say that you will have an effect on the flavors, but at the same time other factors can influence as much. 
Also about the fact that yeast are just working with sugar, it is false, they will produce a bunch of molecules at the same time. With the different kind of grape juice they will produce different flavors...
Finally I still think that&#039;s hard to differentiate only by the nose. Or it&#039;s because it has really badly done, and their is no integration of the flavors or residual sugars.
Nils]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
In Answer to 1WineDude and Nolan.<br />
I did an experiment two years ago in weak rosé (From Tannat) and chardonnay. I added 16 gr/l of sugar(1% of alcohol). Because of temperature issues, I add the sugar at different moment. In the end I had complete wine profiles&#8230; So just to say that you will have an effect on the flavors, but at the same time other factors can influence as much.<br />
Also about the fact that yeast are just working with sugar, it is false, they will produce a bunch of molecules at the same time. With the different kind of grape juice they will produce different flavors&#8230;<br />
Finally I still think that&#8217;s hard to differentiate only by the nose. Or it&#8217;s because it has really badly done, and their is no integration of the flavors or residual sugars.<br />
Nils</p>
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		<title>By: 1WineDude</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302573</link>
		<dc:creator>1WineDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm... Im not gonna say it&#039;s impossible, but I&#039;d need to see some scientific evidence to be convinced (i.e., measurable differences in how the yeasts ferment the added sugar vs. grape sugars, etc.)...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230; Im not gonna say it&#8217;s impossible, but I&#8217;d need to see some scientific evidence to be convinced (i.e., measurable differences in how the yeasts ferment the added sugar vs. grape sugars, etc.)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dermot Nolan MW</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302572</link>
		<dc:creator>Dermot Nolan MW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Tyler,

The bit I don&#039;t understand is this bit: &quot;claiming lab test showed a wine had been chaptalized (legally permissible)&quot; - if chaptalisation is caried out it&#039;s to add alcohol to wine. How can a lab test show that 1.5 points of the 13% abv points came from added sugar?

In re tastes of chaptalisation - again, I don&#039;t see where the flavours are coming from. The sugar is conerted to alcohol, not to aromatic compounds by and large. Further, any additional aromatics would be quite weak so it&#039;s highly unlikely that any different flavours would be noticeable.

While I don&#039;t want to sound anti-blog there are two aspects to this that are annoying. First, I dislike anonymous posters - if you&#039;ve something interesting to say then you should be willing to identify yourself. Second, this is an area where I&#039;ll take advice from trained oenologists only, not wine geeks. As a Master of Wine one of the things I&#039;ve learned is how little I know and how much I can learn but I want to learn from people who really know their stuff. This isn&#039;t an opinion point, this relates to seriously technical stuff.

Good luck to the USA today!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tyler,</p>
<p>The bit I don&#8217;t understand is this bit: &#8220;claiming lab test showed a wine had been chaptalized (legally permissible)&#8221; &#8211; if chaptalisation is caried out it&#8217;s to add alcohol to wine. How can a lab test show that 1.5 points of the 13% abv points came from added sugar?</p>
<p>In re tastes of chaptalisation &#8211; again, I don&#8217;t see where the flavours are coming from. The sugar is conerted to alcohol, not to aromatic compounds by and large. Further, any additional aromatics would be quite weak so it&#8217;s highly unlikely that any different flavours would be noticeable.</p>
<p>While I don&#8217;t want to sound anti-blog there are two aspects to this that are annoying. First, I dislike anonymous posters &#8211; if you&#8217;ve something interesting to say then you should be willing to identify yourself. Second, this is an area where I&#8217;ll take advice from trained oenologists only, not wine geeks. As a Master of Wine one of the things I&#8217;ve learned is how little I know and how much I can learn but I want to learn from people who really know their stuff. This isn&#8217;t an opinion point, this relates to seriously technical stuff.</p>
<p>Good luck to the USA today!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302553</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 00:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If Chaptalization could be reliably detected in the glass, why would there be so much scientific literature about the difficulty of establishing whether a wine has been Chaptalized? (Detecting the presence of Beet Sugar in particular seems to require nuclear magnetic resonance...those of you who can detect it with your natural olfactory equipment are obviously missing an opportunity to make some big money here.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Chaptalization could be reliably detected in the glass, why would there be so much scientific literature about the difficulty of establishing whether a wine has been Chaptalized? (Detecting the presence of Beet Sugar in particular seems to require nuclear magnetic resonance&#8230;those of you who can detect it with your natural olfactory equipment are obviously missing an opportunity to make some big money here.)</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302548</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t doubt that a winemaker might be able to tell, but I question the caramel and bonbon descriptors.  I&#039;m sure I&#039;ve had a good number of QbA German wines that have been chaptalized and I don&#039;t remember noticing those notes in any.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t doubt that a winemaker might be able to tell, but I question the caramel and bonbon descriptors.  I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ve had a good number of QbA German wines that have been chaptalized and I don&#8217;t remember noticing those notes in any.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Webb</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302547</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately still legal in Sauternes and widely practised especially amongst the cheaper wines for sale in French supermarkets to partner Foie Gras etc.

Barley sugar is a smell that comes to mind but most noticeable is the &#039;deadening&#039; of a chaptelised wine a while after it has been poured.  I find good non-chaptelised Sauternes will keep ages in the fridge and retain its freshness and flavours while after only an hour or so a chaptelised wine will close up and the sugaryness dominate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately still legal in Sauternes and widely practised especially amongst the cheaper wines for sale in French supermarkets to partner Foie Gras etc.</p>
<p>Barley sugar is a smell that comes to mind but most noticeable is the &#8216;deadening&#8217; of a chaptelised wine a while after it has been poured.  I find good non-chaptelised Sauternes will keep ages in the fridge and retain its freshness and flavours while after only an hour or so a chaptelised wine will close up and the sugaryness dominate.</p>
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		<title>By: RobinC</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2010/06/22/chaptalization-wine-taste/#comment-302546</link>
		<dc:creator>RobinC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.drvino.com/?p=7052#comment-302546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow.  What an interesting question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  What an interesting question.</p>
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