Comments on: When Nebbiolo’s not for newbies – and toward a general theory of bitter http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/ wine talk that goes down easy Thu, 09 Feb 2012 23:11:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: tom hyland http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-275588 tom hyland Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:57:39 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-275588 Remember that with a Barolo or Barbaresco (both made exclusively from Nebbiolo), you have the bitterness of the Nebbiolo grape coming from the natural grape tannins and then you have the tannins of the wood, which are especially strong when aged in barriques, small French oak barrels. The more that publications such as The Wine Spectator promote this latter style of wine - flashy with deep color and offering the toasty vanillin qualities of small barrels - the more producers will make wine that way. Thus more consumers will think that this is what these wines are supposed to taste like. If you're not used to wines such as these, then they will indeed taste quite bitter. Nebbiolo is a tannic variety, so it makes little sense to age it in small barrels where the wine actually picks up more tannins. Try a Barbaresco aged in large casks such as one from Produttori del Barbaresco or a Barolo from a producer such as Marcarini (Brunate, La Serra) also aged in large casks to experience a rounder, less bitter version of Nebbiolo. Not to mention, these examples are great evidence of their terroir. Or try a Roero Rosso (also Nebbiolo) or a Nebbiolo d'Alba, which are much less aggressive in their tannins and thus much less bitter. So to merely say that Nebbiolo is bitter misses the point, doesn't it? Remember that with a Barolo or Barbaresco (both made exclusively from Nebbiolo), you have the bitterness of the Nebbiolo grape coming from the natural grape tannins and then you have the tannins of the wood, which are especially strong when aged in barriques, small French oak barrels.

The more that publications such as The Wine Spectator promote this latter style of wine – flashy with deep color and offering the toasty vanillin qualities of small barrels – the more producers will make wine that way. Thus more consumers will think that this is what these wines are supposed to taste like. If you’re not used to wines such as these, then they will indeed taste quite bitter.

Nebbiolo is a tannic variety, so it makes little sense to age it in small barrels where the wine actually picks up more tannins. Try a Barbaresco aged in large casks such as one from Produttori del Barbaresco or a Barolo from a producer such as Marcarini (Brunate, La Serra) also aged in large casks to experience a rounder, less bitter version of Nebbiolo. Not to mention, these examples are great evidence of their terroir.

Or try a Roero Rosso (also Nebbiolo) or a Nebbiolo d’Alba, which are much less aggressive in their tannins and thus much less bitter.

So to merely say that Nebbiolo is bitter misses the point, doesn’t it?

]]> By: Newspaper wine clubs - are they any good? NYT jumps in | Dr Vino's wine blog http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-267006 Newspaper wine clubs - are they any good? NYT jumps in | Dr Vino's wine blog Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:50:35 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-267006 [...] as sourcing incredible deals since the wines are essentially pre-sold. But clubs could also send a bitter, tannic wine to someone who likes only sweet, for example. The biggest drawback with many clubs, it would seem, [...] [...] as sourcing incredible deals since the wines are essentially pre-sold. But clubs could also send a bitter, tannic wine to someone who likes only sweet, for example. The biggest drawback with many clubs, it would seem, [...]

]]> By: Joseph http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266709 Joseph Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:01:39 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266709 This post really enlightens me about bitterness. I find that I'm in the minority who prefer bitterness. I love Evian water because I find it has a slight bitterness. I enjoy an almost black coffee (I do add a little sugar). I enjoy only medium to dark beer, particularly stouts because they are bitter (I can't stand pale beer). And I do like bitter, tannic wines. I've only tried Nebbiolo once, in your class actually. I do remember it being very much a taste bud twister. I do look forward to looking for Barbarescos the next time I'm in a wine shop. I still wonder why do certain people have a predilection for bitter tastes? Are our taste buds less sensitive to subtle tastes, requiring massive flavors to be satisfied? Does this say something about our personalities? Here's to bitterness nonetheless! This post really enlightens me about bitterness. I find that I’m in the minority who prefer bitterness.

I love Evian water because I find it has a slight bitterness. I enjoy an almost black coffee (I do add a little sugar). I enjoy only medium to dark beer, particularly stouts because they are bitter (I can’t stand pale beer). And I do like bitter, tannic wines. I’ve only tried Nebbiolo once, in your class actually. I do remember it being very much a taste bud twister. I do look forward to looking for Barbarescos the next time I’m in a wine shop.

I still wonder why do certain people have a predilection for bitter tastes? Are our taste buds less sensitive to subtle tastes, requiring massive flavors to be satisfied? Does this say something about our personalities? Here’s to bitterness nonetheless!

]]> By: Paul Strobl http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266522 Paul Strobl Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:04:48 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266522 Great analogy! I'm a former beer geek (does one ever lose the title?) and aspiring wine geek living Mendoza, Argentina. Recently tasted a Nebbiolo and loved it. And, well, I love ridiculously hoppy beer...go figure... Great analogy! I’m a former beer geek (does one ever lose the title?) and aspiring wine geek living Mendoza, Argentina. Recently tasted a Nebbiolo and loved it. And, well, I love ridiculously hoppy beer…go figure…

]]> By: Pietro http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266464 Pietro Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:03:42 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266464 When I was young Barolo was often defined as a " vino di arrivo". Not a completely correct Italian expression but it gave the idea: a wine you had to "arrive" to,just as you do with more complex food and tastes. It was not a wine for beginners and that's what it still is. However, thanks for the IBU suggestion. I think it adds an extra dimension to the debate but I personally think this has to do more with complexity which necessarily means more tannins. There are lots of studies about how the human palate evolved to naturally tend to dislike bitterness as it was often associated with poison and/or danger. Unfortunately too many humans ( especially of the Homo Americanus subspecies) seem to have overcome their fears and are bidding up the prices for Barolo and Barbaresco ( which I personally tend to prefer)to levels where we can't afford to buy it anymore :-) When I was young Barolo was often defined as a ” vino di arrivo”. Not a completely correct Italian expression but it gave the idea: a wine you had to “arrive” to,just as you do with more complex food and tastes.
It was not a wine for beginners and that’s what it still is.
However, thanks for the IBU suggestion. I think it adds an extra dimension to the debate but I personally think this has to do more with complexity which necessarily means more tannins.
There are lots of studies about how the human palate evolved to naturally tend to dislike bitterness as it was often associated with poison and/or danger. Unfortunately too many humans ( especially of the Homo Americanus subspecies) seem to have overcome their fears and are bidding up the prices for Barolo and Barbaresco ( which I personally tend to prefer)to levels where we can’t afford to buy it anymore :-)

]]> By: Benito http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266389 Benito Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:45:59 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266389 Dr. Vino, My comments on bitterness and food history come from my previous life as an anthropology major. :) Wikipedia has the equation on how IBUs are computed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bitterness_Units_scale If you're interested in a sort of "vertical tasting" of bitterness, try these three beers from Dogfish Head, which are pretty easy to find: 60-minute IPA, 90-minute IPA, 120-minute IPA, with the time referring to the duration of contact with hops. The recipes were tweaked so that the time signature matches the IBU rating. Note that these need to be treated like after-dinner fortified wines rather than something to go with a bratwurst at a BBQ. Dr. Vino,

My comments on bitterness and food history come from my previous life as an anthropology major. :)

Wikipedia has the equation on how IBUs are computed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bitterness_Units_scale

If you’re interested in a sort of “vertical tasting” of bitterness, try these three beers from Dogfish Head, which are pretty easy to find: 60-minute IPA, 90-minute IPA, 120-minute IPA, with the time referring to the duration of contact with hops. The recipes were tweaked so that the time signature matches the IBU rating.

Note that these need to be treated like after-dinner fortified wines rather than something to go with a bratwurst at a BBQ.

]]> By: Dr. Vino http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266373 Dr. Vino Wed, 12 Aug 2009 00:57:39 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266373 Great comments! Yes, Benito, I recalled a New Yorker article about bitter but couldn't come up with it. Did you see it? How are IBUs computed and how could wines be similarly tested? @Billburge - interesting you don't like tannic wines but do like black coffee and hoppy beers. Maybe the theory needs refinement. Btw I had a draft Dogfish Head 90 minute ale the other day and liked it. But I had to dash so drank it in 30 minutes! Funny, Damon, to compare microbrews to Cali cabs! Great comments!

Yes, Benito, I recalled a New Yorker article about bitter but couldn’t come up with it. Did you see it?

How are IBUs computed and how could wines be similarly tested?

@Billburge – interesting you don’t like tannic wines but do like black coffee and hoppy beers. Maybe the theory needs refinement. Btw I had a draft Dogfish Head 90 minute ale the other day and liked it. But I had to dash so drank it in 30 minutes!

Funny, Damon, to compare microbrews to Cali cabs!

]]> By: Damon http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266339 Damon Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:55:22 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266339 I'm not fond of Barolo/Barbaresco's, probably because I don't have the time, patience nor money to let these highly-structured bottles lie till the tannins subside & the wines evolve. But I'm definitely a fan of Nebbiolo della Langhe's and Valtellina's (especially Sforzato versions YUM YUM YUM) These tend to be much more approachable in their youth but aren't your tutti-frutti hedonistic juice bombs. The weirdest rendition of Nebbiolo I've had was Balgera's prosseco-like sparkler called Chiavennasca Frizzante. Made from Nebbiolo (the chiavennasca grape in Lombardia) it's had no skin-contact so it's WHITE. Seriously. It's funny you mentioned IBU's and the current fad of extreme high-alcohol hopped-up microbrews that seem to garner all the attention & awards at beer festivals. In some ways they can be compared to the overoaked Cali cabs that were all the rage up until recently. Both are styles that are crafted to hit you over the head & stun your palate in submission. And while both have their legions of advocates, there's an increasing vocal minority of drinkers who want more balance & subtlety. I’m not fond of Barolo/Barbaresco’s, probably because I don’t have the time, patience nor money to let these highly-structured bottles lie till the tannins subside & the wines evolve. But I’m definitely a fan of Nebbiolo della Langhe’s and Valtellina’s (especially Sforzato versions YUM YUM YUM) These tend to be much more approachable in their youth but aren’t your tutti-frutti hedonistic juice bombs.

The weirdest rendition of Nebbiolo I’ve had was Balgera’s prosseco-like sparkler called Chiavennasca Frizzante. Made from Nebbiolo (the chiavennasca grape in Lombardia) it’s had no skin-contact so it’s WHITE. Seriously.

It’s funny you mentioned IBU’s and the current fad of extreme high-alcohol hopped-up microbrews that seem to garner all the attention & awards at beer festivals. In some ways they can be compared to the overoaked Cali cabs that were all the rage up until recently. Both are styles that are crafted to hit you over the head & stun your palate in submission. And while both have their legions of advocates, there’s an increasing vocal minority of drinkers who want more balance & subtlety.

]]> By: Dylan http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266257 Dylan Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:53:27 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266257 I agree with your sentiment, Tyler. For anyone new to wine, beer, or spirits the goal should always lean further away from the bitter side. Not that these bitter tastes do not have their merit, but it is something that is learned to be appreciated over time. I know this all too well being someone who would sampled his father's beers in disgust, only now, close to 10 years later enjoying some of those same bottles. I agree with your sentiment, Tyler. For anyone new to wine, beer, or spirits the goal should always lean further away from the bitter side. Not that these bitter tastes do not have their merit, but it is something that is learned to be appreciated over time. I know this all too well being someone who would sampled his father’s beers in disgust, only now, close to 10 years later enjoying some of those same bottles.

]]> By: Jake http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266256 Jake Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:43:54 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266256 I agree... there's a certain level of pain that I associate with drinking a Barolo or Barbaresco (especially young). Where many of us would agree that nebbiolo makes some of the worlds best wine, it may be difficult for a new wine drinker to see that. Give them the Viottolo Nebbiolo from Australia...being intensely fruity and almost void of any tannins, many newbies should enjoy it...besides the fact that it has about the same amount in common with a Barolo as a Barossa Shiraz. I agree… there’s a certain level of pain that I associate with drinking a Barolo or Barbaresco (especially young). Where many of us would agree that nebbiolo makes some of the worlds best wine, it may be difficult for a new wine drinker to see that.

Give them the Viottolo Nebbiolo from Australia…being intensely fruity and almost void of any tannins, many newbies should enjoy it…besides the fact that it has about the same amount in common with a Barolo as a Barossa Shiraz.

]]> By: Bill Burge http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266232 Bill Burge Tue, 11 Aug 2009 16:08:22 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266232 60 IBUs for a beer is actually not that high. Some of your Double IPAs and Imperial IPAs will have palate wrecking quantities of IBUs in the 100 IBU realm. Something like Dogfish Head 90min IPA, Pliny the Elder, or Ruination for example. Interestingly, these high IBU beers are some of my favorites, I'm an absolute whore for coffee, but I do not care for bitter--highly tannic--wines. 60 IBUs for a beer is actually not that high. Some of your Double IPAs and Imperial IPAs will have palate wrecking quantities of IBUs in the 100 IBU realm. Something like Dogfish Head 90min IPA, Pliny the Elder, or Ruination for example.

Interestingly, these high IBU beers are some of my favorites, I’m an absolute whore for coffee, but I do not care for bitter–highly tannic–wines.

]]> By: Bill http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266215 Bill Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:37:38 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266215 Paitin needs patience and time. Nebbiolo can be fierce and unyielding when drunk too young. Often, it will remain closed and no amount of air will budge it if caught in a dumb phase. I had a young Paitin Barbaresco not so long ago, and I remember it just so; as if it is angry for being woken too soon. That is why Paitin makes a kind of "baby Barbaresco"- check out their Nebbiolo Ca'Vega for early consumption. Let those 2004 Barbarescos rest for now. I like my coffee black, beers with middle of the road hops, but I like my wines to evolve(or devolve) in a glass, and I expect to see this happen. Paitin needs patience and time. Nebbiolo can be fierce and unyielding when drunk too young. Often, it will remain closed and no amount of air will budge it if caught in a dumb phase. I had a young Paitin Barbaresco not so long ago, and I remember it just so; as if it is angry for being woken too soon. That is why Paitin makes a kind of “baby Barbaresco”- check out their Nebbiolo Ca’Vega for early consumption. Let those 2004 Barbarescos rest for now.

I like my coffee black, beers with middle of the road hops, but I like my wines to evolve(or devolve) in a glass, and I expect to see this happen.

]]> By: Boettcher http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266145 Boettcher Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:46:44 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266145 When trying to guesstimate someone's palate I ask if the person prefers Red Vines or Twizzlers licorice. The Twizzler preference in my experience (n is about 50) correlates to a sweeter (or higher ALC), more extracted, more fruit forward wine than a preference for Red Vines. While not foolproof it works quite well and is a good conversation starter. Great topic to bring up! When trying to guesstimate someone’s palate I ask if the person prefers Red Vines or Twizzlers licorice. The Twizzler preference in my experience (n is about 50) correlates to a sweeter (or higher ALC), more extracted, more fruit forward wine than a preference for Red Vines. While not foolproof it works quite well and is a good conversation starter.

Great topic to bring up!

]]> By: Ben http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266086 Ben Tue, 11 Aug 2009 02:13:36 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266086 Interesting post. I think you're spot-on regarding the geeky/nerd bitter factor. Part of the huge success of sweet, rich high alcohol Aussie Shiraz is that it's easy to 'get'. It appeals to a lot of palates. Hence why a lot of commercial wine in general is made in a similar vein. Nebbiolo is a niche – and a great one at that. Interesting post. I think you’re spot-on regarding the geeky/nerd bitter factor. Part of the huge success of sweet, rich high alcohol Aussie Shiraz is that it’s easy to ‘get’. It appeals to a lot of palates. Hence why a lot of commercial wine in general is made in a similar vein. Nebbiolo is a niche – and a great one at that.

]]> By: Fine Vine http://www.drvino.com/2009/08/10/nebbiolo-newbies-tannins-toward-general-theory-bitter/#comment-266048 Fine Vine Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:47:28 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=3599#comment-266048 I enjoy my coffee with cream and sugar, however I like my wine with stronger flavor. There is nothing like a hearty bottle of Syrah to blast my taste buds. I enjoy my coffee with cream and sugar, however I like my wine with stronger flavor. There is nothing like a hearty bottle of Syrah to blast my taste buds.

]]>