Comments on: Screwcaps, scores, riesling, the Loire, Cali cab: John Gilman part two http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/ wine talk that goes down easy Thu, 09 Feb 2012 23:11:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Iain Cameron http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-369439 Iain Cameron Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:37:35 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-369439 Hearing comments like these on screwcap from John I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's perfectly simple for winemakers to adjust their winemaking in order to avoid using high levels of copper in order to avoid reduction problems. Admittedly many South Australian Rieslings from the 2000-2 vintages suffered unduly from reduction in the early days of widespread use, but it is far less of a problem now. Regardless, reductive characters can be overcome with some air. As far as I know that's not the case with respect to TCA. It's not just the issue of cork taint, (not recognised by many consumers who simply dismiss the wine as being of poor quality) but random oxidation. John might like to read some of the AWRI's research into cork, discovering that oxygen ingress within the same batch of high quality cork varied up to 1000 times. Looking forward to the day when every consumer can open a wine and (storage conditions permitting) simply discuss it's virtues with like minded folk. Not 'whether it's a good bottle'. Hearing comments like these on screwcap from John I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. It’s perfectly simple for winemakers to adjust their winemaking in order to avoid using high levels of copper in order to avoid reduction problems. Admittedly many South Australian Rieslings from the 2000-2 vintages suffered unduly from reduction in the early days of widespread use, but it is far less of a problem now. Regardless, reductive characters can be overcome with some air. As far as I know that’s not the case with respect to TCA.

It’s not just the issue of cork taint, (not recognised by many consumers who simply dismiss the wine as being of poor quality) but random oxidation. John might like to read some of the AWRI’s research into cork, discovering that oxygen ingress within the same batch of high quality cork varied up to 1000 times.

Looking forward to the day when every consumer can open a wine and (storage conditions permitting) simply discuss it’s virtues with like minded folk. Not ‘whether it’s a good bottle’.

]]> By: Luther http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-340544 Luther Sun, 03 Apr 2011 06:41:56 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-340544 I think for people that actually like to enjoy wine, and drink it often instead of saving and storing it all away in cellars, screwcaps are fine. In fact, check out Wine Guerrilla's wines. I think the alcohol content in those is what keeps them fresh, despite the use of screwcaps. :) Hording wine is silly. That's my opinion anyway. Life is short, drink the wine. I think for people that actually like to enjoy wine, and drink it often instead of saving and storing it all away in cellars, screwcaps are fine.

In fact, check out Wine Guerrilla’s wines. I think the alcohol content in those is what keeps them fresh, despite the use of screwcaps. :)

Hording wine is silly. That’s my opinion anyway. Life is short, drink the wine.

]]> By: Which closure do you hate the most? [poll] | Dr Vino's wine blog http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-300622 Which closure do you hate the most? [poll] | Dr Vino's wine blog Tue, 25 May 2010 12:58:31 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-300622 [...] While it is difficult to determine the precise relative market shares of each closure, we can express our opinion about closure type. The major downside of corks is the problem of cork taint (TCA), which can produce pungent aromas of moldy newspapers. Screw caps eliminate TCA but may create a virtually anaerobic environment that the wines become plagued by “reduction”–John Gilman expressed his dislike of screw caps here. [...] [...] While it is difficult to determine the precise relative market shares of each closure, we can express our opinion about closure type. The major downside of corks is the problem of cork taint (TCA), which can produce pungent aromas of moldy newspapers. Screw caps eliminate TCA but may create a virtually anaerobic environment that the wines become plagued by “reduction”–John Gilman expressed his dislike of screw caps here. [...]

]]> By: When chenin blanc dazzles and sparkles: Huet, Laureau, Belliviere & more! | Dr Vino's wine blog http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-300336 When chenin blanc dazzles and sparkles: Huet, Laureau, Belliviere & more! | Dr Vino's wine blog Tue, 18 May 2010 18:18:48 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-300336 [...] Domaine Aubuisieres, cuvée de silex, Vouvray, sec, 2008 $18: really a gorgeous example of chenin–and a good value too. Enticing aromas of honey and white flowers, delicious mouthfeel combining acidity and minerality in a wine with six grams of residual sugar, barely above the threshold of perception. Bernard Fouquet, somewhat controversially, bottles this wine under screw cap but my bottle was not showing any sign of reduction. [...] [...] Domaine Aubuisieres, cuvée de silex, Vouvray, sec, 2008 $18: really a gorgeous example of chenin–and a good value too. Enticing aromas of honey and white flowers, delicious mouthfeel combining acidity and minerality in a wine with six grams of residual sugar, barely above the threshold of perception. Bernard Fouquet, somewhat controversially, bottles this wine under screw cap but my bottle was not showing any sign of reduction. [...]

]]> By: Philip Laffer of Jacob's Creek on Riesling, petrol, and screwcaps | Dr Vino's wine blog http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-208118 Philip Laffer of Jacob's Creek on Riesling, petrol, and screwcaps | Dr Vino's wine blog Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:22:08 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-208118 [...] the Chief Winemaker of Jacob’s Creek so I sat down with him and talked about Riesling. Given John Gilman’s previous comments about Australian Riesling on this blog, I had to ask him about screwcaps (Stelvin closures) and reduction (anti-oxidation). [...] [...] the Chief Winemaker of Jacob’s Creek so I sat down with him and talked about Riesling. Given John Gilman’s previous comments about Australian Riesling on this blog, I had to ask him about screwcaps (Stelvin closures) and reduction (anti-oxidation). [...]

]]> By: Read other writers - blog.Cellarer http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-183558 Read other writers - blog.Cellarer Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:15:04 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-183558 [...] John Gilman on what’s wrong with Rieslings from Austria or Australia, screwcaps, California Cabernets, roto-ferme.... [...] [...] John Gilman on what’s wrong with Rieslings from Austria or Australia, screwcaps, California Cabernets, roto-ferme…. [...]

]]> By: Paul Gemoto http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-180639 Paul Gemoto Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:13:43 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-180639 From Mark Squires Bulletin Board 01-06-2009, 03:39 PM Robert Parker Wine Critic Re: Good Gilman interview in Dr Vino Blog Don't know Gilman,but his comments on Helen Turley are reckless and just out and out false,suggesting strongly he should at least visit her or get some first hand knowledge of the facts before writing ..her chardonnays have nearly a 20 year record of evolving in the bottle...probably longer lived and less prone to oxidation than Mount Eden or the pre-85 Chalones.....she uses indigenous yeasts from the vineyard,not commerial ones(but that matters less than you think)...and there is no residual sugar in her wines....nor are they any higher in alcohol than a top vintage of Grand Cru white Burgundy...if the comments reproduced on the board are accurate...his comments are preposterous...and terribly ignorant...but at least they succeeded in getting him some attention...another example of internet chatter that has no truth and is second-hand dribble.... From Mark Squires Bulletin Board

01-06-2009, 03:39 PM
Robert Parker
Wine Critic

Re: Good Gilman interview in Dr Vino Blog
Don’t know Gilman,but his comments on Helen Turley are reckless and just out and out false,suggesting strongly he should at least visit her or get some first hand knowledge of the facts before writing ..her chardonnays have nearly a 20 year record of evolving in the bottle…probably longer lived and less prone to oxidation than Mount Eden or the pre-85 Chalones…..she uses indigenous yeasts from the vineyard,not commerial ones(but that matters less than you think)…and there is no residual sugar in her wines….nor are they any higher in alcohol than a top vintage of Grand Cru white Burgundy…if the comments reproduced on the board are accurate…his comments are preposterous…and terribly ignorant…but at least they succeeded in getting him some attention…another example of internet chatter that has no truth and is second-hand dribble….

]]> By: Mike Pollard http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-180386 Mike Pollard Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:45:26 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-180386 You have to wonder if Gilman has read any of the research that has been done on screw caps, or even tasted any older wines. His not having "paid any attention" to Aussie riesling in 10 years is pretty telling but the best bit are his comments on the Penfolds 2007 Bin 51 Eden Valley Riesling. "Their 2007 Bin 51 Eden Valley Riesling was a perfect example of just how insidious screwcaps are for wine- this wine received 90 points from Josh Raynolds in his International Wine Cellar review in the September-October ’08 issue, and Josh has a great palate. By the time we tasted the wine at the end of October it was already obviously suffering from sulphate reduction- it was overtly mineral and borderline metallic on the palate, and about as short on the finish as a wine could be- classic reduction symptoms. About as classic an example of a 75 point wine as I have come across in some time. Now most wine drinkers would not recognize the symptoms of sulphate reduction in the wine- this was a journalist-only event and I did not hear many comments about the reduced aspects of the wine when it was served- and most would just assume that Penfolds cannot make riesling worth a damn." Let's just emphasize that again "I did not hear many comments about the reduced aspects of the wine when it was served". Hmm, wonder if this guy knows what reduction is or whether he's just too sensitive to it. Hard to tell. Either way its just another individual opinion that has no bearing on how anyone else would assess the wine. And he has to get in that "Now most wine drinkers would not recognize the symptoms of sulphate reduction in the wine". In other words I know what I'm talking about but the rest of you don't. Of course its equally possible that its the other way around. A bit critical of Gilman you might say. Maybe you'd like to read what some (other)Australians have to say. http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=69406#69406 You have to wonder if Gilman has read any of the research that has been done on screw caps, or even tasted any older wines. His not having “paid any attention” to Aussie riesling in 10 years is pretty telling but the best bit are his comments on the Penfolds 2007 Bin 51 Eden Valley Riesling.

“Their 2007 Bin 51 Eden Valley Riesling was a perfect example of just how insidious screwcaps are for wine- this wine received 90 points from Josh Raynolds in his International Wine Cellar review in the September-October ’08 issue, and Josh has a great palate. By the time we tasted the wine at the end of October it was already obviously suffering from sulphate reduction- it was overtly mineral and borderline metallic on the palate, and about as short on the finish as a wine could be- classic reduction symptoms. About as classic an example of a 75 point wine as I have come across in some time. Now most wine drinkers would not recognize the symptoms of sulphate reduction in the wine- this was a journalist-only event and I did not hear many comments about the reduced aspects of the wine when it was served- and most would just assume that Penfolds cannot make riesling worth a damn.”

Let’s just emphasize that again “I did not hear many comments about the reduced aspects of the wine when it was served”. Hmm, wonder if this guy knows what reduction is or whether he’s just too sensitive to it. Hard to tell. Either way its just another individual opinion that has no bearing on how anyone else would assess the wine.

And he has to get in that “Now most wine drinkers would not recognize the symptoms of sulphate reduction in the wine”. In other words I know what I’m talking about but the rest of you don’t. Of course its equally possible that its the other way around.

A bit critical of Gilman you might say. Maybe you’d like to read what some (other)Australians have to say.

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=69406#69406

]]> By: Dylan http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-180367 Dylan Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:40:03 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-180367 Wow, that was a lot to read, but a good read nonetheless. I have to disagree slightly on the point of critic's philosophy presented under wine scores. I do agree, there should be subjective elements, and when I find a critic that shares my aesthetic tastes, than I can count on them as the guinea pig for future endeavors and almost certainly rely on a match between us. However, there is nothing flawed in the idea of seeing something there that works for someone else, but perhaps not for you. Anytime I have ever been asked by friends about a movie I've seen, I will always relate it to their tastes. I can tell when I disliked something, but through my understanding of another friend or "type of person" they could enjoy it. The blurry line here with the scoring system and solely using subjectivity, is that the scores really dictate how far a bottle of wine will go. If people looked at scores as individual tastes, rather than the gospel, it would be a different story. Yet, I don't think we are at this point where most look at scores in this way. Wow, that was a lot to read, but a good read nonetheless. I have to disagree slightly on the point of critic’s philosophy presented under wine scores. I do agree, there should be subjective elements, and when I find a critic that shares my aesthetic tastes, than I can count on them as the guinea pig for future endeavors and almost certainly rely on a match between us. However, there is nothing flawed in the idea of seeing something there that works for someone else, but perhaps not for you. Anytime I have ever been asked by friends about a movie I’ve seen, I will always relate it to their tastes. I can tell when I disliked something, but through my understanding of another friend or “type of person” they could enjoy it. The blurry line here with the scoring system and solely using subjectivity, is that the scores really dictate how far a bottle of wine will go. If people looked at scores as individual tastes, rather than the gospel, it would be a different story. Yet, I don’t think we are at this point where most look at scores in this way.

]]> By: saverio petrilli http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-180360 saverio petrilli Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:41:30 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-180360 I was send this page from a friend and find it very interesting, a deep and broad view of wine. Until now I have read few people capable of that! Talking about wood, have you ever thought about the edible property of wood? Human being are not designed to eat wood, they don't have the enzymes necessary to do that (few mushrooms have that) and when we substitute fruit tannins and aromas with wood tannins and aromas we will have a wine very difficult to digest. Than we can blame the chef for a long awake night and the cost of our "digestive" pills but we better talk with winemakers with their "fluffy tannins", chips and new oak barrels! with all my respect sincerely Saverio Petrilli I was send this page from a friend and find it very interesting, a deep and broad view of wine. Until now I have read few people capable of that!
Talking about wood, have you ever thought about the edible property of wood? Human being are not designed to eat wood, they don’t have the enzymes necessary to do that (few mushrooms have that) and when we substitute fruit tannins and aromas with wood tannins and aromas we will have a wine very difficult to digest. Than we can blame the chef for a long awake night and the cost of our “digestive” pills but we better talk with winemakers with their “fluffy tannins”, chips and new oak barrels!
with all my respect sincerely
Saverio Petrilli

]]> By: Brady http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-180035 Brady Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:56:52 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-180035 I just posted a link to this article to ebob... http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=190866 Stirring up some discussion there, even from Robert Parker. Thanks for the great interview. -Brady I just posted a link to this article to ebob…

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=190866

Stirring up some discussion there, even from Robert Parker.

Thanks for the great interview.

-Brady

]]> By: Michael http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-179997 Michael Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:12:56 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-179997 Nara, I am not sure I understand, are you implying that Alsace is suffering from the same problem as Austria? If so that is the first I have heard of it, but it sounds as if you may just be a bit confused, as to the best of my knowledge Zind does not produce any wine in Austria. I think the screwcap discussion here is great, and it is nice to finally hear someone give a knowledgeable voice to the more generalized concerns that I have personally felt about this type of closure. Since I am no happier with Stelvin I say stay with real cork for the time being. And I find the numeric score section to be fascinating too. I find the biggest problem I run into with this is on CT, because I would like to be very subjective, but in a way, in order for the tool to be useful, there must be, on some level, a consensus on scoring, so I comply for the sake of maximizing the tools efficacy. The only other option, which I sometimes choose, is to not use the numeric score at all, but then, as John mentioned, you are left with only the prose, subject to all its own intrinsic shortfalls. It is a difficult choice at times, but I still attempt, and I am glad that others do as well, for the sake of making greater information available to those who would seek it as an aid to purchasing wine. Nara, I am not sure I understand, are you implying that Alsace is suffering from the same problem as Austria? If so that is the first I have heard of it, but it sounds as if you may just be a bit confused, as to the best of my knowledge Zind does not produce any wine in Austria.

I think the screwcap discussion here is great, and it is nice to finally hear someone give a knowledgeable voice to the more generalized concerns that I have personally felt about this type of closure. Since I am no happier with Stelvin I say stay with real cork for the time being.

And I find the numeric score section to be fascinating too. I find the biggest problem I run into with this is on CT, because I would like to be very subjective, but in a way, in order for the tool to be useful, there must be, on some level, a consensus on scoring, so I comply for the sake of maximizing the tools efficacy. The only other option, which I sometimes choose, is to not use the numeric score at all, but then, as John mentioned, you are left with only the prose, subject to all its own intrinsic shortfalls. It is a difficult choice at times, but I still attempt, and I am glad that others do as well, for the sake of making greater information available to those who would seek it as an aid to purchasing wine.

]]> By: Nara http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-179640 Nara Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:35:16 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-179640 Really enjoyed both interviews with John. Especially liked the part about Austrian wines. I'd tasted a few from Zind-Humbrecht which everyone was going crazy for but I found too oily and hot, didn't realize that what I was tasting was the high alcohol. Really enjoyed both interviews with John. Especially liked the part about Austrian wines. I’d tasted a few from Zind-Humbrecht which everyone was going crazy for but I found too oily and hot, didn’t realize that what I was tasting was the high alcohol.

]]> By: Thom Calabrese http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-179611 Thom Calabrese Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:23:56 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-179611 Bravo Tyler! I think I'd like to eat and drink wine with Mr Gilman. I have always encouraged people to like what they like. My favorite line I used, when I was a wholesaler was "Wine is the only test where all the answers are correct" I agree 1,000% that rating wine is very subjective and like movies, I go where my tastes and palates meet. It doesn't matter a hill of beans what Parker,Wine Spectator or dare I say....even Dr Vino thinks if I don't agree. The bottom line for my personnel palate is I like wine a lot and drink it with food. Just like you can use too much salt or over/under cook food, wine can get very disjointed with high alcohol,too much oak, not enough acidity. John's article was very interesting and informative. Happy New Year to you both and keep up the good work. Bravo Tyler! I think I’d like to eat and drink wine with Mr Gilman.
I have always encouraged people to like what they like. My favorite line I used, when I was a wholesaler was “Wine is the only test where all the answers are correct” I agree 1,000% that rating wine is very subjective and like movies, I go where my tastes and palates meet.
It doesn’t matter a hill of beans what Parker,Wine Spectator or dare I say….even Dr Vino thinks if I don’t agree.
The bottom line for my personnel palate is I like wine a lot and drink it with food. Just like you can use too much salt or over/under cook food, wine can get very disjointed with high alcohol,too much oak, not enough acidity.
John’s article was very interesting and informative.
Happy New Year to you both and keep up the good work.

]]> By: Weston http://www.drvino.com/2009/01/05/screwcaps-scores-riesling-the-loire-cali-cab-john-gilman-part-two/#comment-179604 Weston Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:17:28 +0000 http://www.drvino.com/?p=2968#comment-179604 where Can I read more about sulphate reduction? that sounds interesting. where Can I read more about sulphate reduction? that sounds interesting.

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