Why do wine flights not take off at NYC wine bars?

wineflight.jpg“Choosing one Vino Volo wine flight has a sneaky way of begetting another,” wrote Pete Hellman in the NY Sun in September. He was doing some recon at the new wine bar at inside Terminal 8, on the right side of security. He tried the “Taste of New York” flight for $9 and mentions talking with a Finnish traveler who was taking his wine education seriously and on his third flight already. Good man.

Wine bars around America have been warming up to flights, a series of three or four small pours around a certain theme, say, a region or a grape variety. I like flights. If you’re going to order wine by the glass, which is generally an enormous rip-off, I figure why not use it to experiment. Who doesn’t love having multiple glasses in front of them? Well, it does matter what they contain, of course. And, to a certain extant, once you’ve had the flight once, you can move on to your faves.

One of the oddities about the vibrant NYC wine bar scene is that there are so few flights available. Wines by the glass, yes, with some places offering over 100 selections. Why not make some of those into flights? Comments are open for your theories on why flights have crashed and burned in NYC. And feel free to post the names of places that do have flights. Here, I’ll get the ball rolling: I Trulli, The Monday Room, Vino Volo…

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19 Responses to “Why do wine flights not take off at NYC wine bars?”


  1. Not living in NYC I can only give a more general response to this topic. I feel that the wine flight could be an instrument of good, but is far more often a ridiculous shell-game of a menu stunt, hiding a good taste in the midst of far inferior pours. The other problem, besides consistency of quality, is value. You are correct to point out the already heinous price scheme for by-the-glass offerings, but I have observed that the way the flight pours out tends to leave you with even less wine for your money, or cheaper wines masquerading as an education on a lesser-known region or varietal. In short, I feel they tend to be for those who know very little about wine, and may actually be in need of the education. For my part, I’ll wait until I see flights arranged with worthy participants in adequate amounts. In that case I could see myself switching, and actually appreciating the chance to compare the way one normally only can at a tasting or well hosted wine party.


  2. Divine Bar offers many flights. It was one of the few wine bars I hit up in my first time in NYC, and I was amazed at the great selection and especially the different flights to choose from. I think there was at least 20 flights.


  3. I dont think wine flights are so much dead as just needing to be updated and reworked. Having worked in the wine bar business i found flights not to be effective and sometimes a waste of wine. If there was an unpopular flight with bottles opened at different times, it made consistency difficult. I am a big fan of offering pours like they do at Hearth.


  4. Vintage’s Wine Bar in SoHo offers flights.


  5. Most beginners do not understand how to develop and learn their palate, and wine flights are a great mechanism for that.

    Of course, we don’t have many places here in Philadelphia that offer them.


  6. I think they fail (and not just in NYC…why just in NYC?) most often due to the wrong wines being placed in the flight.

    Example, do I really want a Wash. Riesling, a German Riesling and an Australian Riesling as a flight? No, these wines are quite dissimilar, and serve no purpose of being in a flight unless you’ve never ever had a German Riesling (or whatever). How often do you see a flight where comparison can be meaningful, such as flight of 2001 German Spatleses?

    But what do I know.


  7. Oh, I answered the question that is the Title of your post, which seemed to have nothing to do with the actual content of the post (well, except for the final paragraph, which practically contradicts paras 1 and 2). I almost suggest taking parts of the third para and moving it to the very beginning, but it’s still convoluted. (Where’s that rescramble post button, where after 10-20 tries, one would be just right?)

    “Have your say in the latest poll!” and then, only two choices for the poll? Tyler, I think those are your choices, not mine. Or was this poll generated by the Republicans For Safer Flights in Wine Bars?

    Hmmm…thinking further, I don’t see how the poll question relates to the title of the post, except, in a very obscure way.


  8. I’m in Beijing and have not seen ANY flights here, though I would love to. Over the past few years, quite a few bars have opened that offer 50 or more wines by the glasses, so it could work. In an emerging market like this, my feeling is that flights would be a fun way to get people trying and talking about wine.

    Cheers, Boyce


  9. Wine flights on a restaurant’s menu seem like a “stunt,” as Michael called them, but at a wine bar, they can be an educational tool. At a wine bar, I see how flights have their place. In NYC or elsewhere.

    I completely disagree with Jack. If I were starting out as a wine drinker, and I wanted to learn about riesling, damn straight I’d want to taste how an Australian, Washington, and German riesling compare. Now, at this stage in my wine-drinking life, I doubt I’d order that. But 10 years ago? Sure! Now, how large is the market for such tastings? That’s the real question…

    And another comment for Jack: Get off your high horse, buddy. Not only are your views on wine woefully arrogant, but your editorial comments are equally so. Open up the EditingDrVino.com message boards if you feel so passionately about a freakin’ blog post’s organizational consistency. If there were an “ignore commenter” option on this blog, I’d click it for you.


  10. Phil said, “If I were starting out as a wine drinker, and I wanted to learn about riesling, damn straight I’d want to taste how an Australian, Washington, and German riesling compare.” Ah, so you won’t order this flight. And you assume most of those just starting out to know to try this kind of riesling flight. You make sense, but I bet this doesn’t actually happen often. Further, if they’re just starting out, shouldn’t they be takiing a Wine Class (Tyler’s?) that offers a comparison of rieslings? So that someone can explain if the riesling is typical for that place, etc., etc., etc.?

    But, when you’re at a restaurant, you generally want wine that goes with your food, right? I mean, I’m not making a stretch there, right? Okay, so how does a flight of disparate rieslings match my food? One/some will/might match, but not all. Dry rieslings most often pair with different foods than Off-dry rieslings. So the flight only partially works with the food; hence, a savvy diner won’t order a flight the next time. This eventually leads to flights being dropped from this restaurant’s list. And, dare I say, answers Tyler’s question!

    Phil, I’m not saying that there aren’t those who want to try adventurous flights of riesling (such as people who read wine blogs)…but is the typical diner/wine bar visitor wanting that? I just don’t think so; people (in the US) are very unadventurous when it comes to what they put into their mouth. Perhaps, too, they think they won’t like 1 or 2 glasses in the flight, so why order the flight? Most can’t bear to order something, not like it, and then still not drink it; so just don’t order it. Once they have a bad experience, they may never order a flight again.

    Another poll answer missing is: Flights cost too much. Again, if a flight costs $25, and you might only like 2 of the 3 wines in the flight, why not just order a glass of each of those instead? Ah-hah.

    Another Poll answer missing is: Wines Not So Good. Perhaps the flights just aren’t appealing enough to the customers who are disposed to order a flight?

    Oh, and Tyler is telling us his perception (rather than citing statistics) that wine flights are not doing well at NYC wine bars, correct? But, it does seem that wine bars are thriving much more now than they were 20 years ago in NYC. Back then, it was the Soho Kitchen & Bar that was the spot; and a few others not-so-grand. Now…wow!


  11. I am pleased to see wine flights “taking off” from central London. Specifically, Fortnum & Mason 1707 Wine bar.
    http://www.alastairbathgate.com/2007/12/03/fortnum-mason-wins-least-rip-off-prize/


  12. Flights are a great idea. I want to start doing them but have been so busy with the shop. I eventually will get there. It is sort of my New Year resolution. In Vino only has about 30 wines by the glass but we rotate them often so it would be cool for our customers to get a glimpse of a few at a time considering we change the selection almost weekly. Good point Dr. Vino. By the way I have a new shop for your map. Alphabet City Wine Co. brought to you by the guys over at In Vino. It’s at 100 Ave. C btw 6th & 7th Streets. I haven’t been around the blog-o-sphere for a couple of months because of the shop but I hope to be back on track in 2008. Hope all is well. And I llook forward to getting back to your blog as often as possible once again.

    EvWg


  13. Jack,

    Your reply to my comment was far more thoughtful than your original comment, and I applaud that.

    I note that you shift the discussion: from wine flights available for purchase in wine bars to wine flights available (or not) in RESTAURANTS. Like I said earlier, flights at a restaurant are a stunt. I agree wholeheartedly that ordering a flight at a restaurant is silly. If I want wine that matches my food, one wine will do. (Or one wine per course, if you’re going that route.) But not a flight.

    A bar is different, though. I like the idea of tasting a range of wines without committing to a full glass.

    The problem I see with wine bars (in general, and not just re: flights) is that many wines are just not meant to be had on their own. They’re best with food, and the wine bar doesn’t usually offer much in the way of food pairings. So the experience ends up being sub-par, since it’s not being enjoyed in the ideal context — flight or not.

    I also agree with your comments re: the pricing of flights. Wines by the glass are expensive enough. Flights are even worse!

    I disagree with your argument that flights are dumb and should be replaced by classes. I think there are many ways to learn about wine. Don’t get me wrong, I see the value in classes, though I have never taken a class. I don’t begrudge those who do, and I’m sure that Dr. Vino’s classes, which you mention, are superb. But different learning styles suit different people, and flights may be part of that mix. Why are you so absolute about everything? (FWIW, I learned what I know from a few books, and from many bottles.)

    Finally, I disagree with your depiction of the American consumer. Sure, there are some people whose idea of fine dining is Cheesecake Factory, but there are others who are as adventurous as can be. The US is amazingly diverse, and I would argue that the dining variety — and flexibility — is one of the greatest things about our multifaceted culture. And big cities — Tyler’s potentially myopic New York-centrism aside — are the epicenter of adventurous dining and drinking.

    Flights have their place. GOOD flights even more so. And good, REASONABLY PRICED flights? Bring ’em on. I only hope you won’t require any statistics for me to make that claim.


  14. Jack, I’m all for people taking wine classes if they want but most people just don’t have time to spend researching a drink. They want to know what they like and don’t like. Frankly, that’s enough for most people, which is why flights are such a great idea.


  15. I’ve enjoyed many great wine flights in restaurants and wine bars all over California. I love the opportunity to try several wines for the price of a glass. Maybe someday NYC will catch on…


  16. Thanks for these comments, from a wine bar owner in NYC, a vintner in CA and consumers around the world.

    Yes, clearly the content of the flights matter in that they have to be interesting. Changing the flights periodically can also keep it interesting for the return visitor.

    Regarding the choices in the poll, I generally try to present extreme choices and leave the comments open for any nuance.

    Jack, while I appreciate your desire to participate in the DrVino.com community, many — close to all — of your comments have a decidedly negative tone. This latest exchange generated several e-mails (“Yay for Phil!”). While I don’t censor comments, I have to wonder why you’re so consistently negative. I hope you’ll offer more positive–or at least balanced and pleasant–commentary in the future.


  17. I am redoing our wine list and considering placing wine flights on the list. Is it really not a good idea, does it not sell?


  18. I just read that VINO 313 is going to start flights every Sun, Mon and Tues from 5-7.

    Vino 313 is a great wine bar and I am so excited that they are ready for take off.


  19. Most of the beginners do not understand how to develop and learn their palate, and wine flights are a great mechanism for that.

    Moury Roberts


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