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	<title>Comments on: Goose gitmo</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/</link>
	<description>wine talk that goes down easy</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-156360</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-156360</guid>
		<description>Jenny, foie gras is called what it is.  It means "fatty liver" in French, since the French are the main providers and consumers of it.  They're not really hiding anything.  Sure, English speakers could call it fatty liver too, but that lacks the international flare, and aural appeal, of the French name.  Much like Bearnaise sauce sounds much better than "buttery egg sauce with spices".

As far as the ethical debate...  I think the notion of kindness is inappropriate when referring to the treatment of animals raised for food.  I'd prefer they not suffer, but these are animals raised so that we can kill them and eat them.  "Humane killers" sounds like an oxymoron.

Animal activism has improved the care and treatment of animals.  But at the extreme, animal activism envisions a world where no one will ever hurt an animal.  Animal activists need to keep those that deal with animals in line, and everyone else needs to keep animal activists in line.

If you take it to the extreme, either we have dog fighting or the police are knocking on my door because of reports that I used bug spray to kill the spiders in my basement.  Either is absurd, but it's up to each person to decide where to draw the line.  

If you think forced feeding is not humane, stop eating foie gras.  If you think killing animals is not humane, stop eating animals.  If you think spiders deserve to live, invite them into your house.  Otherwise, keep eating what you eat, doing what you do.  In either case, drop the legislation.  I've never eaten foie gras, as it's not something that really appeals to me, but I want the right to make my own decision on whether or not to buy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jenny, foie gras is called what it is.  It means &#8220;fatty liver&#8221; in French, since the French are the main providers and consumers of it.  They&#8217;re not really hiding anything.  Sure, English speakers could call it fatty liver too, but that lacks the international flare, and aural appeal, of the French name.  Much like Bearnaise sauce sounds much better than &#8220;buttery egg sauce with spices&#8221;.</p>
<p>As far as the ethical debate&#8230;  I think the notion of kindness is inappropriate when referring to the treatment of animals raised for food.  I&#8217;d prefer they not suffer, but these are animals raised so that we can kill them and eat them.  &#8220;Humane killers&#8221; sounds like an oxymoron.</p>
<p>Animal activism has improved the care and treatment of animals.  But at the extreme, animal activism envisions a world where no one will ever hurt an animal.  Animal activists need to keep those that deal with animals in line, and everyone else needs to keep animal activists in line.</p>
<p>If you take it to the extreme, either we have dog fighting or the police are knocking on my door because of reports that I used bug spray to kill the spiders in my basement.  Either is absurd, but it&#8217;s up to each person to decide where to draw the line.  </p>
<p>If you think forced feeding is not humane, stop eating foie gras.  If you think killing animals is not humane, stop eating animals.  If you think spiders deserve to live, invite them into your house.  Otherwise, keep eating what you eat, doing what you do.  In either case, drop the legislation.  I&#8217;ve never eaten foie gras, as it&#8217;s not something that really appeals to me, but I want the right to make my own decision on whether or not to buy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-131845</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-131845</guid>
		<description>Adam - I agree that all those practices are unkind, and my closing comment was meant to include all the animals raised for food. This is just one example of a MUCH larger issue, unfortunately.  I was actually researching food network's "Iron Chef" on wikipedia, which led me to learn what foie gras really was.  (funny how these things have fancy names, why not just call it what it is??)  Anyway, just wanted to throw in my personal beliefs about animal treatment.  I'm not going attempt to say where the line is between kind, respectable treatment and inhumane,(because I think an animal can be kept in less than ideal situations and still be humane), but I think it should always be taken into consideration.  I got really upset when God was brought in as justification. 

I'd also like to say that my family raises cattle....which are currently out in pastures eating grass. :) I didn't know that cows are kept in barns to have light meat, good grief.  Sometimes it would be so much easier to be kept in the dark about these sort of things (no pun intended).  When did food go from survival to vanity??

Last, I probably felt the need to post (I rarely do), because ironically a baby duck was sleeping on my lap as I read the blog.  (We are raising the lone duck our hen hatched in the house, because something would have gotten him had he been left with the big ducks).  He's very tame, and I wouldn't dream of treating him that way.  And no, keeping a duck in the house isn't natural, but I can guarantee he's happy. 

I have much less of a problem with those that are doing it on their own, for their family.  It's when animal production gets industrialized that things go all wrong. 

I'm in Kansas fyi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam - I agree that all those practices are unkind, and my closing comment was meant to include all the animals raised for food. This is just one example of a MUCH larger issue, unfortunately.  I was actually researching food network&#8217;s &#8220;Iron Chef&#8221; on wikipedia, which led me to learn what foie gras really was.  (funny how these things have fancy names, why not just call it what it is??)  Anyway, just wanted to throw in my personal beliefs about animal treatment.  I&#8217;m not going attempt to say where the line is between kind, respectable treatment and inhumane,(because I think an animal can be kept in less than ideal situations and still be humane), but I think it should always be taken into consideration.  I got really upset when God was brought in as justification. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to say that my family raises cattle&#8230;.which are currently out in pastures eating grass. <img src='http://www.drvino.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> I didn&#8217;t know that cows are kept in barns to have light meat, good grief.  Sometimes it would be so much easier to be kept in the dark about these sort of things (no pun intended).  When did food go from survival to vanity??</p>
<p>Last, I probably felt the need to post (I rarely do), because ironically a baby duck was sleeping on my lap as I read the blog.  (We are raising the lone duck our hen hatched in the house, because something would have gotten him had he been left with the big ducks).  He&#8217;s very tame, and I wouldn&#8217;t dream of treating him that way.  And no, keeping a duck in the house isn&#8217;t natural, but I can guarantee he&#8217;s happy. </p>
<p>I have much less of a problem with those that are doing it on their own, for their family.  It&#8217;s when animal production gets industrialized that things go all wrong. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m in Kansas fyi.</p>
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		<title>By: tumadoireacht</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-131801</link>
		<dc:creator>tumadoireacht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-131801</guid>
		<description>stacy has neatly(perhaps unwittingly) referenced a reason for which foie is(gavage) singled out for particular criticism beyond other carnivore habits,namely fear of male oral rape(used to best effect in movie "alien"
anthropomorphism rocks 
free the bees
help the yeasts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>stacy has neatly(perhaps unwittingly) referenced a reason for which foie is(gavage) singled out for particular criticism beyond other carnivore habits,namely fear of male oral rape(used to best effect in movie &#8220;alien&#8221;<br />
anthropomorphism rocks<br />
free the bees<br />
help the yeasts</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-131776</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-131776</guid>
		<description>Interesting point Jenny !  

Your closing comment begs the definition of 'Kindness and respect'.  In view of the fact that all animals in a 'Farm' are living [for them] in an artificial and  managed environment, does that mean it is unkind. If not, is feeding cows with grain in a shed kind, when they normally prefer to be grazing on grass outside especially when their guts are designed to eat grass, or keeping salmon or any farmed fish in water cages and fed an artificial diet kind when they normally would be swimming all over the place? Chickens being squashed in huge sheds with little fresh air or space to live and scratch around, cows kept in darkened barns as in Europe to ensure pale meat or geese being content [silly billies] to have another gorging from their captors.. the list goes on and strickly speaking they are all examples of 'unkindness'. 
If the foie gras drum is to be beaten, there must surely be a consistency of revulsion and containment of all other unkind and disrespectable practises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting point Jenny !  </p>
<p>Your closing comment begs the definition of &#8216;Kindness and respect&#8217;.  In view of the fact that all animals in a &#8216;Farm&#8217; are living [for them] in an artificial and  managed environment, does that mean it is unkind. If not, is feeding cows with grain in a shed kind, when they normally prefer to be grazing on grass outside especially when their guts are designed to eat grass, or keeping salmon or any farmed fish in water cages and fed an artificial diet kind when they normally would be swimming all over the place? Chickens being squashed in huge sheds with little fresh air or space to live and scratch around, cows kept in darkened barns as in Europe to ensure pale meat or geese being content [silly billies] to have another gorging from their captors.. the list goes on and strickly speaking they are all examples of &#8216;unkindness&#8217;.<br />
If the foie gras drum is to be beaten, there must surely be a consistency of revulsion and containment of all other unkind and disrespectable practises.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-131743</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 05:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-131743</guid>
		<description>I think it all comes down to selfishness.  We can justify and rationalize anything if it tastes good enough.   

As for God - You really think shoving a feeding tube down a duck's neck is what God meant when he gave us "dominion" over animals??? Seriously??? Isn't the duck God created good enough for us without the force feeding? Are you really telling me that this treatment is our God given right??  I think using God to justify it is just wrong.

I believe treating all animals with kindness and respect during their life is the best way to show thanks for them, even if we do eat them in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it all comes down to selfishness.  We can justify and rationalize anything if it tastes good enough.   </p>
<p>As for God - You really think shoving a feeding tube down a duck&#8217;s neck is what God meant when he gave us &#8220;dominion&#8221; over animals??? Seriously??? Isn&#8217;t the duck God created good enough for us without the force feeding? Are you really telling me that this treatment is our God given right??  I think using God to justify it is just wrong.</p>
<p>I believe treating all animals with kindness and respect during their life is the best way to show thanks for them, even if we do eat them in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-121384</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-121384</guid>
		<description>I'd like to clarify some of the "facts" about bird biology being thrown about here.

1) The variety of duck used in FG production is a cross between a pekin and a muscovy. Unlike geese, muscovies do not migrate, and Pekins only do so sometimes. It's a little disingenous to talk about what these ducks do in the wild, because they don't exist in the wild, and if they did, it's doubtful they would do much migrating.

2) Even when geese gorge themselves before migrating, they do not gorge themselves to anywhere near the extent forced upon them by gavage. In the former case, their livers may swell to 3 times their normal size; in the latter, up to 10 times their normal size.

3) While the tube down the throat is an unpleasant sight, the force feeding itself is not the biggest concern. What is more concerning is the fact that the bird's liver becomes so large that it actually smooshes other organs, including the lungs, as well as the fact that liver function becomes extremely impaired. Since the liver is responsible for, among many other things, filtering out metabolic wastes and other toxins, a failing liver means that these wastes continue to circulate, making the poor bird feel quite sick. 

Certainly, there are other animals who are being cruely treated in much larger numbers, but that doesn't justify continued cruelty to ducks and geese for foie gras.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to clarify some of the &#8220;facts&#8221; about bird biology being thrown about here.</p>
<p>1) The variety of duck used in FG production is a cross between a pekin and a muscovy. Unlike geese, muscovies do not migrate, and Pekins only do so sometimes. It&#8217;s a little disingenous to talk about what these ducks do in the wild, because they don&#8217;t exist in the wild, and if they did, it&#8217;s doubtful they would do much migrating.</p>
<p>2) Even when geese gorge themselves before migrating, they do not gorge themselves to anywhere near the extent forced upon them by gavage. In the former case, their livers may swell to 3 times their normal size; in the latter, up to 10 times their normal size.</p>
<p>3) While the tube down the throat is an unpleasant sight, the force feeding itself is not the biggest concern. What is more concerning is the fact that the bird&#8217;s liver becomes so large that it actually smooshes other organs, including the lungs, as well as the fact that liver function becomes extremely impaired. Since the liver is responsible for, among many other things, filtering out metabolic wastes and other toxins, a failing liver means that these wastes continue to circulate, making the poor bird feel quite sick. </p>
<p>Certainly, there are other animals who are being cruely treated in much larger numbers, but that doesn&#8217;t justify continued cruelty to ducks and geese for foie gras.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-120136</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 08:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-120136</guid>
		<description>The Adam of the July 3rd remark is not the same Adam of the March 2nd remark. The second is likely to be American, the earlier one is very much English !!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Adam of the July 3rd remark is not the same Adam of the March 2nd remark. The second is likely to be American, the earlier one is very much English !!</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-119829</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-119829</guid>
		<description>...and yet who feels bad after forcing a ton of turkey carcass into our bodies during Thanksgiving or a trip to McD's???  That is why we do the things we do.  Thank Pepsi for this quote: "Wake up people!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and yet who feels bad after forcing a ton of turkey carcass into our bodies during Thanksgiving or a trip to McD&#8217;s???  That is why we do the things we do.  Thank Pepsi for this quote: &#8220;Wake up people!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Schloss for the Gander &#167; Unqualified Offerings</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-115365</link>
		<dc:creator>Schloss for the Gander &#167; Unqualified Offerings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-115365</guid>
		<description>[...] a post from 2006, Doctor Vino allows that, on the artisinal foie-gras farm he visited, Whether or not having a feed tube shoved down the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a post from 2006, Doctor Vino allows that, on the artisinal foie-gras farm he visited, Whether or not having a feed tube shoved down the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Curious Expeditions &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Running a fowl of the law&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-111787</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious Expeditions &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Running a fowl of the law&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-111787</guid>
		<description>[...] accounts by chefs, here and here, of behind the scenes at foie gras [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] accounts by chefs, here and here, of behind the scenes at foie gras [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Goose from&#160;Toulouse : The Daily P.E.E.P.</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-102394</link>
		<dc:creator>The Goose from&#160;Toulouse : The Daily P.E.E.P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 18:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-102394</guid>
		<description>[...] the Humane Society of the United States. I think its all a bunch of rubbish and as Tyler Colman has pointed out attacking the minuscule foie gras industry in the United States is the response to not having the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Humane Society of the United States. I think its all a bunch of rubbish and as Tyler Colman has pointed out attacking the minuscule foie gras industry in the United States is the response to not having the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Foie Gras</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-80656</link>
		<dc:creator>Foie Gras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-80656</guid>
		<description>[...] the Humane Society of the United States. I think its all a bunch of rubbish and as Tyler Colman has pointed out attacking the minuscule foie gras industry in the United States is the response to not having the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Humane Society of the United States. I think its all a bunch of rubbish and as Tyler Colman has pointed out attacking the minuscule foie gras industry in the United States is the response to not having the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Vino&#8217;s wine blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Foie gras fest 2006 continues!</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-77278</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Vino&#8217;s wine blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Foie gras fest 2006 continues!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-77278</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Goose gitmo&#8221; [Dr. V] &#8220;Foie gras, arrest thy neighbor&#8221; [Dr. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Goose gitmo&#8221; [Dr. V] &#8220;Foie gras, arrest thy neighbor&#8221; [Dr. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Vino&#8217;s wine blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Paris/France wine roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-76978</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Vino&#8217;s wine blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Paris/France wine roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 22:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-76978</guid>
		<description>[...] travel Goose gitmo, my visit to a foie gras farm Explore Perigord France travel tips Dr. Vino for minister of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] travel Goose gitmo, my visit to a foie gras farm Explore Perigord France travel tips Dr. Vino for minister of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.drvino.com/2006/08/03/goose-gitmo/#comment-76795</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.103.16.189/~drvinoco/wordpress/2006/08/goose-gitmo/#comment-76795</guid>
		<description>Richard has raised a pertinant issue,[treating animals with dignity etc] and then, as I see it, tacked on another point [humans being entitled to eat animals or prepare them for our comsumption]

Humans being disdainful to animals is an inadequate accusation. History and even life today shows that humans tend also to be disdainful of humans, especially if they are of a lesser economic, or intellectual or social level. So, animals arent the only victims of our disdain, sadly.  
Mankind evidently needs a major mind/heart change.
 
On the issue of mankind being entitled to prepare animals for consumption, that depends if you believe God has given us dominion over animals and if it is OK to consume them. I believe we have been
, but as has been indicated, with dignity and good care. I do not accept that feeding up geese is cruel, and the geese's behaviour supports that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard has raised a pertinant issue,[treating animals with dignity etc] and then, as I see it, tacked on another point [humans being entitled to eat animals or prepare them for our comsumption]</p>
<p>Humans being disdainful to animals is an inadequate accusation. History and even life today shows that humans tend also to be disdainful of humans, especially if they are of a lesser economic, or intellectual or social level. So, animals arent the only victims of our disdain, sadly.<br />
Mankind evidently needs a major mind/heart change.</p>
<p>On the issue of mankind being entitled to prepare animals for consumption, that depends if you believe God has given us dominion over animals and if it is OK to consume them. I believe we have been<br />
, but as has been indicated, with dignity and good care. I do not accept that feeding up geese is cruel, and the geese&#8217;s behaviour supports that.</p>
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